Godshew.org's Uncensored Discussion Forum
... Sean cont'd (since post exceeded 5000 characters)
Danny,
Again as I consider your assertions I find category mistakes. Your assertion that they received not the promise and your description of shame would suggest they did not inherit eternal life with God. The promise they didn’t receive was having seen the fulfillment of their Messiah in their life. In Hebrews 11:39 where it says they didn’t inherit the promise, isn’t saying they didn’t inherit salvation. That is where you’re mistaken sir.
As for "Christ" paying any "price", such as a ransom to a kidnapping extortioner, well, in my Bible such is impure religion;Your analogy of the death of Jesus to paying a ransom to a kidnapper is correct. Jesus, God in the flesh, Emmanuel, adhered to his own word, his own standard of justice and righteousness and paid the wages of sin. He did pay a price, a price that He Himself set and was able to accomplish.Whereas pure religion speaks of him that is pre-sanctified paying a "visit" (not a ransom, for such would only 'enable' more kidnapping; a good reason not to negotiate with devil). And it also notes, with respect to pure religion, the visitor who visits those folk (who do not yet have a Husband nor a Father, since they haven't decided between law or grace) in "their affliction" (grace + law) remains unspotted.
I’ve noted in much of your exposition you overly spirtitualized a number of principles as you do here in regards to "pure religion". I don’t even think you know what you mean when you say some of the things you say. The problem with that is you often miss being able to reach out to those who are in the greatest need for salvation. Let’s face it nothing you have presented will do anything for the Alcoholic father, the abused wife, and the neglected child closest to you.
Are you equating Jesus or the Holy Spirit to the visitor in the previous statements?
There is no real decision between law and grace, you either receive salvation as a free gift by grace, or you don’t. Don’t make the mistake of thinking there is an alternative.
Most Graciously,
Sean
Pastor Sean,
Grace unto you, and peace,
from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
I too was once a believer of your bloody sacrificial ransom theory, probably more loyal to the person of Jesus than you all, had more zeal, attended church more often than the pastor did, witnessed more than the whole witness team, etc... until I finally realized it did not hold water any better than a collander when the biblical and historical evidence was looked at and the Bible was read in full content and context (instead of a verse here and there to prove some theory just to make me right and others wrong).
I assure you, dear brother, I've studied the Bible more than all peers, probably close to 100,000 hrs; not to mention I've also studied first hand, or by video and audio tapes, most of the world's renowned prechers, many of the world's religions.
As to miracles, I've probably experienced more than most people have even seen, and seen more than all people have. I'm not talking second or third hand stories, I've been there, did it, seen it, experienced it, even to a tornado sent by witch doctors. I watched the four winds form a swirling cloud the size of a small city over my home, withstood it, and told it where to go. If God says go somewhere, I don't look at the gas gauge to see if I'll make it there. I know I'll make it, and have seen the gas gauge go up, rather than down.
As to prophecy, whenever I have made such, and I seldom do, since to me it's a sacred trust, not to be trifled with, not a trivial thing, they come true 100% of the time. I always record such with several people, follow it up with them after.
I have also had my time in the wilderness with the Holy Spirit, three years on an island reserve, being taught directly by the Spirit, precept upon precept, beginning with the end, which is also declared from the beginning, and diligently checked out each precept given from Gen 1:1 to Rev 22:21 to make 100% sure it was the only true God, and not just 99/100 truths with a little lie thrown in (which would make it all a lie, since "a little leaven leaventh the whole lump").
I assure you I assert nothing till I have personally checked it out, do not just talk the talk, but walk the walk. What you call mental gymnastics and foolish dialogues are tried and proven, beyond any doubt, backed up with ample evidence, both biblical and historical, to make it infallible. I spend more time cross checking myself, and what I say, than I do with what others say. I do not take any of it lightly.
I also assure you it does not offend God to check it out so thoroughly, make full proof, for His objective for us all is to become so aware of truth we cannot be tempted nor duped. That, in a nutshell, is the primary objective, prime directive.
For in a kingdom of one, all for one and one for all, whatever happens to any affects the whole. So it behooves us all to get it: understanding, the sort which when embraced results in y(our) head being crowned with grace glory, the glory of God we all fell short of by Moses adding law to His grace.
The law [and lie] was given by "Moses",
but grace and truth came by "Jesus Christ".
He taketh away the first,
that he may establish the second.
I never want to be right to make others wrong, but rather I do want to be right to make all right, none left (behind) at all. I always remain fully open to scrutiny, and have spent countless hours on emails with those who are "afraid" to have open and public discussion, including many pastors. I have no fear of open and public discussion, whether it be with an individual or a gang of groupies; and I never lose. For love, the perfect sort, having no fear at all, never fails.
Yet I do not claim to have any partiality with God whatsoever. In fact grace has probably abounded more to me because I needed it more than you all. I was a loyal legalist in my legalistic days, and concerning the law: blameless... I have been investigated more than any other person, renowned or unknown, and by more governing bodies than you could even imagine, tried and tested, and for many years. They all found nothing, no closet, no fault. Yet I found my loyalty to law was ruinous, nigh unto death, the death of us all. Of this I have repented more than you all, for I know of no one on earth more loyal to law than I was.
And when I asked the Spirit: why me? Why not pastor Sean, or Billy Graham, or some renowned person they will listen to; the response I got was I was the most loyal legalist on earth, like Saul of Tarsus in his day. My loyalty was stedfast, immovable. The only problem was, I was loyal to devilish law, not to His grace. When I used the law, it was lawfully, not hypocritically nor with any partiality. Of that, God had respect, yet not of my person, only my loyalty.
Now as to God's will ... cont'd
...cont'd
Now as to God's will, especially His will of "decree", the concept of mercy, and God being mercy full, is paramount. The scripture is clear: "I will have mercy, and not sacrifice". It is not optional, as many suppose, but immutable; For in a kingdom the decree of the king is absolute, applies to all, even the king. And a wise king does not make a decree without having thought it through, from beginning to end, looked at every aspect of it, to be assured it is what's best, of good, better, best; and best for all, not some only.
In what you call "my supposition", I assure you I have not overlooked many scriptures which speak contrary. Rather I'm aware not all scriptures(plural) are inspired of God, rather all scripture(singular) is. The scriptures(plural) are obviously written as scripture vs scripture, law vs grace, fear vs love, curse vs bless, often as a perverted mixture which makes an oxyMORON with a BAD ending: blessed + cursed.
To mix scriptures, rather than realize they're contrary, is to be blessed + cursed = accursed (Gal 1:9), accursed by "another gospel" than "the gospel", specifically "that gospel" of "that God" who is all light and no darkness at all (1Jn 1:5). Such is also "the gospel" of Christ, and Paul: "his witness unto all men"; the gospel of grace and peace, which is indeed contrary to the gospel of law and war.
What war, if he "is" our peace?
What law, if "grace" and truth came by Jesus Christ? What crisis, if it's all right at right hand of God?
Your "further consideration" is simply grace + law, and such is an oxyMORON with a BAD ending, for law is a lie, and so limited it will stunt your growth in grace to the point an adult of such (not yet weaned from law) is called a "babe" (Heb 5).
You need to get off the Humpty Dumpty wall you're sitting on before you have a great fall, the sort which all your king's horses and men cannot put together again (you cannot uncrack an egg). You need to be decisive: law or grace, for both is not an option, one only is Lord of all, the other being Lord of some only, the some-what(?), I know not what.
You speak of "the blood of Jesus", which is mentioned only once in all the Bible, in Heb 10, which also speaks of law being imperfect, unable to purge any of sin consciousness, being a "shadow" of things to come, NOT the very(true) things to come. HELLO. Read your Bible, all of it, not just the verses which flatter you and support your faulty theories.
A "shadow" is a dark 'phantom' thing, not the very thing. And there is no "shadow" of turning with God, nor any shadow cast by the great pyramid at spring equinox, a yearly event which occurs at a pile of stones, an ancient wonder. There's no great wonder, nor wondering, when you know the truth.
Your faulty gospel of bloodshed and sacrifice has not produced world peace; rather wars, and worldwide chaos. The world has become so chaotic, so many left behind by your gospel, we need dislexic glasses to make it look right.
Thinking is not only allowed, but encouraged, exhorted. Take heed. Why? Lest you get deceived. How? By not taking more earnest heed of what is written. Such was written aforetime for y(our) "learning". Why? It is preposterous order to teach first and learn after.
For when the time ye ought to be a teacher, "ye" have need that one teach "you" again which [be] the "first" principles (plural) of the oracles (plural) of God; And principles (plural) we are exhorted to leave, in order to go on unto perfection; for there is no perfection in principles (plural: grace + law).
He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
You're still striving, and failing, to establish grace without taking away law. It's not only childish folly, but utter folly, to go against the immutable will of God; and by two immutable things: God cannot lie nor die (allegory: Grace cannot law).
It's an allegory(Gal 4:24) with a moral: "grace is sufficient".
Nevertheless, if any "man" be ignorant, let him. If you must have your precious law, then "go" (opposite of "come"), have it, and all the fear, wrath, dis-ease, torment, suffering, war and bloodshed witch goes with "law worketh wrath", even death if ye like; For such will only provide even more evidence to make it even more evident to watchers that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God (Gal 3). For a man puts away childish things (1Cor 13), and blessed the man to whom the Lord will "not" impute sin (Rom 4).
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them (1Cor 5)
Imputing sin, just for the hell of it, is utter folly. The fault thereof is going to law, which imputes sin to all, not some only. Woe unto you (stop it). Why? It's suicide-all.
Let's "be no more children". Let "us" make "man".
TgooLJCwya. Amen
Daniel Miles
Danny,
If the "bloody sacrificial ransom" is only a theory, please share with me the truth.
The law [and lie] was given by "Moses",
but grace and truth came by "Jesus Christ".
Explain what you mean by the law was given by Moses, when clearly he was a messenger of what God had written. As I noted in my previous email there has always been laws even in the garden of Eden. And there was grace in the garden, because Adam didn't earn the right to have dominion over the earth. It was given by grace.
Now as to God's will, especially His will of "decree", the concept of mercy, and God being mercy full, is paramount. The scripture is clear: "I will have mercy, and not sacrifice".
Correctly quoted from Hosea 6:6 as Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew. He was rebuking them for not putting the proper priority on the laws moral standard and over emphasizing the ceremonial aspects of it. He was not establishing a decree that would grant mercy unconditionaly. Merciful again is only one of God's attributes and does not operate contrary to his other attributes.
In what you call "my supposition", I assure you I have not overlooked many scriptures which speak contrary. Rather I have become aware that not all scriptures(plural) are inspired of God, but rather all scripture(singular) is inspired of God. The scriptures(plural) are obviously written as scripture vs scripture, law vs grace, fear vs love, curse vs bless, often as a perverted mixture which makes an oxyMORON with a BAD ending, such as blessed + cursed.
How do you determine which scripture to overlook?
You speak of "the blood of Jesus", which is mentioned only once in all the Bible, in Heb 10, which also speaks of law being imperfect, unable to purge any of sin consciousness, being a "shadow" of things to come, NOT the very(true) things to come. HELLO. Read your Bible, all of it, not just the verses which flatter you and support your faulty theories.
True enough, the phrase, "the blood of Jesus" is used only once; however Jesus refered to His own blood a number of times. John 6:66, He says they must eat of His flesh and drink of His blood; at the last supper He refers to His blood in regards to the everlasting covenant which is shed for many, not for all. Sir, I too, am seeking the greatest truth, so please don't suggest in a condescending tone that I am trying to pick scriptures that flatter me. If I find the truth in what you propose nothing will stand in my way of embracing it.
You're still striving, and failing, to establish grace without taking away law. It's not only childish folly, but utter folly, to go against the immutable will of God; and by two immutable things: God cannot lie nor die (allegory: Grace cannot law).
I am not trying to "establish grace" the King of kings is well able to establish it without any of my input. Please explain how grace and law existed simultaneously in the garden of Eden.
Get your head out of your ass, put it on your shoulders and use it for thinking.
I expected a greater measure of respect from you sir. Please if we are to continue our interactions let's treat each other with the respect due to a son of the most high God. I have thought carefully of what you wrote and would like the same consideration from you. Over the years I have learned that when it comes to doctrine, I hold it loosly. But because I am teachable, and I love the Lord Jesus dearly I continue to refine much of what I find as doctrine.
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them (1Cor 5)
Actually, 2 Corinthians 5:19. That's ok we all make mistakes. The intrinsic merit of Jesus' reconcilling death is infinite and the offer unlimited; however the actual atonement was made only for those who believe.
I do understand that we differ in some aspects, I would like to find a point of agreement. Would you agree we are called as servants in the Kingdom?
You mentioned that many ministers are afraid to debate you publicly, I know of a number who aren't and I would be willing to facillitate this type of meeting. We have many of these types of debates here locally.
Most Graciously,
Sean
Then Pastor Sean said (to Danny):
You mentioned that many ministers are afraid to debate you publicly, I know of a number who aren't and I would be willing to facillitate this type of meeting. We have many of these types of debates here locally.
And Danny said (to Sean):
YES, YES, YES ... thank you God; for I have worn out a keyboard having endless email chats with people, and I have to type the same things over and over again each time.
Let us have a man to man debate on Godshew.org discussion board, which is fully open, unlimited, and uncensored, so all may see both sides now, and get understanding, both of any things you and yours bring forth (of course you also have a piece of the puzzle) and also whatever I bring forth (I will even draw your piece out of you if you don't freely share it), the only real objective of such being to learn, become aware, get understanding. I welcome such with all my heart, and agree not to be rude.
..................................................
So the debate is on, and now on 'public' forum
Feel free to join in, pick a side, or just comment.
(only objective is "our learning", not a blame game)
Danny,
If you could please send me two or three intitial topics you would like to include in the proposed debate that would be helpful.
Also, I would like to agree upon some basic "rules" to base our debate upon. For me on my part, I expect both respect and honor and will extend such to you. I will not tolerate swearing of any kind and there should be no condescending tone. I am agreeing to explore the depths of your position openly and honestly so as to edify other believers. I hope these terms are agreeable and if you would have any terms I would like to hear them too.
Sean
..................................................
Grace Mercy Peace,
Thank you Sean. I'm sorry I did not get back to you sooner, was busy re-loading my site on the web. A sponsor in USA crashed the site, and the discussion board, while attempting to download it all on disc, for "safe" keeping. Go figure.
No matter, I always look for the blessing, and found one, a dead link in the process, not to mention this particular discussion board was not attracting any discussion, so I put up a new Bravenet forum. It still has advertisements, but as soon as someone donates $20U$ they will all be gone. There are already several topics you may comment on:
http://pub30.bravenet.com/forum/2526810710
I will be posting a new topic every day, so you may pick any one, or several of such, to debate; or we could start a thread from bits and pieces of our email chats (leave out rudeness), and just carry on with Pastor Sean debates Daniel Miles. I think that 'title' would attract many people, as many seem to be attracted to such sporting activities of such champions. I will post such asap, see what comes of it.
I want to thank you again for agreeing to such, as the only goal I would have is "our learning", no blame game, no put downs; but perhaps some Pauline "sharpness" and wit, but only for "exhortation", which is up lifting, not putting down. For as I believe in the oneness and allness of God, us all, putting any brethren down is to put self down, since we are all one, all of one, so whatever applies to any applies to all.
Nevertheless there are some brethren, among us, who are deceived, ignorant, bewitched, and oppose themselves; Yet such is a recoverable spiritual illness, by study, awareness.
I have no rules of engagement, since I am all grace and no law at all. But please remember: grace is not wimmpy. So sharpen your biblical sword, for mine is sharper than any twoedged sword. And let us have healthy controversy.
Let us find points of agreement (as well as disagreement), not so much with each other, but with God. For I do not even suggest any agree with me as much as I suggest we all agree with God, the only true God, the only wise God, the only Potentate, the living God of the living, the God of all grace, that God, the one of twain who is: merciful, perfect.
TgooLJCwya. Amen.
Danny
Does anyone know whereabouts or email of pastor Sean Gapay? My cmpt crashed, lost his email. Last I heard from him, he was also having cmpt trouble. But it's his turn, so I'll just wait.
Mean while, if anyone would dare be his advocate, I'm up again and ready for healthy uncensored controversial debate, and on any subject, with individuals or gangs of groupies; with the only goal being to learn, get understanding, increase awareness; for it's my contention ignorance isn't the bliss many deceived by many ass u me it is:
http://www.godshew.org/ShewBread7.htm#Bliss
Danny in Canadah, eh
if anyone could link me up with my dear friends Pastor and Mrs. Gapay I would be ecstatic. I found this debate doing a search on Pastor Sean Gapay in google - I see that I'm about 3 years behind....
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Replying to:
Does anyone know whereabouts or email of pastor Sean Gapay? My cmpt crashed, lost his email. Last I heard from him, he was also having cmpt trouble. But it's his turn, so I'll just wait.
Mean while, if anyone would dare be his advocate, I'm up again and ready for healthy uncensored controversial debate, and on any subject, with individuals or gangs of groupies; with the only goal being to learn, get understanding, increase awareness; for it's my contention ignorance isn't the bliss many deceived by many ass u me it is:
http://www.godshew.org/ShewBread7.htm#Bliss
Danny in Canadah, eh
