Daniel,
I'm not sure what I'm reading here...doesn't seem like you put much effort into clarity...I just want to make sure that I'm not misunderstanding...
2 Gods? No 2nd Coming? No Hell / Damnation (ALL means ALL)?
If all means all in the way you say, why did JC (while on the cross) only grant salvation to the criminal who ASKED for it with a penitent heart, rather than both he and his unrepentant friend? There's an either-or for you...if you would please respond in a clear manner...some of us aren't as quick-witted as you are.

Derek,

Grace unto you, and peace,
from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

If you look closely at Luke 23:43 in the KJV it says, and notably unto the malefactor who mentioned fear of God and condemnation by God: "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise"? "shalt thou" is a question, not a statement would read thou shalt. Not to mention it's unperfected Jesus speaking, which Jesus himself noted in Luke 13:32: the third day I shall be perfected. And if one day [is] as a thousand years with the Lord in 2Peter 3:8, then we should be expecting the perfection of Jesus any time now, since it's now the third day, allegorically speaking.

As to your other questions:
- 2 Gods? Mention of "the only true God" denotes one or more false Gods to find and compare; In the same manner mention of "the only wise God" denotes one or more foolish Gods to find and compare. Mention of "the blessed and only Potentate" kinda narrows it down to one only. But which one? There's a choice to make in order to have one God, and reason (1000 pages of clarity) given along with choice. Eg: Both Gods (Law and Grace) will give you freedom, such as freedom of speech; But then what about thine own mouth condemneth thee if thy heart is not esablished with grace? So perhaps both freedom and understanding is required to avoid condemning yourself with your own mouth. Not to mention Law also imputes unpardonable sin both here and there, so that narrows the options, if true God hath forgiven you (past tense), and before the Mt 6:14,15 condition of you first. Yet even if a forgiven servant, there's still the matter of the forgiven servant in Mt 18 being tormented after. But true God never changes like an unjust judge does. So you see, all the info provided is required to solve the mystery.

- No 2nd Coming? Rather the 2nd coming already came in: the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth "came" by Jesus Christ.

1st coming: law was given.
2nd coming: grace came, and truth came with it

For further clarity he taketh away the first that he might establish the second; For mixing contrary things makes an oxy-moron, and only a moron made one proselyte: twofold: more the child of hell: would add law to grace is sufficient again.

- No hell/Damnation (ALL means ALL)? There's two alls in God concluded them all in unbelief that he might have mercy upon all; And if the first all is concluded to be sinners all, well then, that's extinction of all if the penalty for sin is death, and to all by the curse of the law. So it's an either or scenario, either them all (dead) or us all (alive), not a mixture. God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to salvation.

So pick one only: salvation or extinction: us or them: grace or law: to be or not to be. For they do not mix, except as grace(is) + law(added), which is also life(is) + death(added), which is a dead end. Oops, not suffered to continue by reason of death.

Obviously continuation is required to endure unto the end (of law) to be saved (only) by grace (only):

The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ with you all. Amen.

I think your reaching when you say that Jesus' response to the thief who repented was a question...my reason would be that if you apply the "shalt" logic you used for this to every "shalt" in the scriptures it would not hold...in regard to the other stuff, you have some valid points and interesting POV's...thanks for simplifying for me. Let me see if I understand...

1 True God...I might not envision this in the same way you do, but I agree with the points you made.

2nd Coming was Jesus Christ as Sacrifice / Grace, so...what is commonly referred to as the 2nd coming is actually the 3rd coming.

Hell/No Hell...that leaves open some questions as to why Paul preached the gospel, why Jesus commanded that the gospel be preached "to every creature", etc. Paul laments that he would exchange his salvation (grace) for that of the nation of Israel if it were possible, denoting that they are not beneficiaries of whatever it is that he has in Christ. And of course, what about the foretold judgement(s) in Revelation?

My main reservation about this line of reasoning is that it neglects the an integral element of the relationship between God and man...God's granting of and refusal to violate the "freedom to choose" / "free will" that He created man with. The risen (perfected) Christ provides grace where the previously the law (choosing to follow) dealt with sin (death)...but God never forced anyone to follow the law (expiation for unrighteousness)nor prevented them from refusing the grace (righteousness) he imputed through Christ.

Also, what about the issue of dispensation? Who is Christ addressing with the "endureth to end" reference? What about those who have died (in Christ)?
Also, the metaphors employed by Paul re: Abraham (faith imputed for righteousness), the passover (not evryone was spared, only those who APPLIED the blood to the door posts), the serpent in the wilderness (only those who looked upon it were healed), Christ's continuous metaphor for salvation with his healings, none of which were forced upon those he healed (with the exception of those possessed), rather, they most often asked, and most often Christ responded to their FAITH...if the ALL is ALL as I understand you to be saying it is, wouldn't he have simply healed everyone?
Why is such a premium put on faith by Jesus Christ himself in teh NT and God the Father in the OT?



Benedici di Dio
Derek

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

Derek,

Grace unto you, and peace,
from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

If you look closely at Luke 23:43 in the KJV it says, and notably unto the malefactor who mentioned fear of God and condemnation by God: "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise"? "shalt thou" is a question, not a statement would read thou shalt. Not to mention it's unperfected Jesus speaking, which Jesus himself noted in Luke 13:32: the third day I shall be perfected. And if one day [is] as a thousand years with the Lord in 2Peter 3:8, then we should be expecting the perfection of Jesus any time now, since it's now the third day, allegorically speaking.

As to your other questions:
- 2 Gods? Mention of "the only true God" denotes one or more false Gods to find and compare; In the same manner mention of "the only wise God" denotes one or more foolish Gods to find and compare. Mention of "the blessed and only Potentate" kinda narrows it down to one only. But which one? There's a choice to make in order to have one God, and reason (1000 pages of clarity) given along with choice. Eg: Both Gods (Law and Grace) will give you freedom, such as freedom of speech; But then what about thine own mouth condemneth thee if thy heart is not esablished with grace? So perhaps both freedom and understanding is required to avoid condemning yourself with your own mouth. Not to mention Law also imputes unpardonable sin both here and there, so that narrows the options, if true God hath forgiven you (past tense), and before the Mt 6:14,15 condition of you first. Yet even if a forgiven servant, there's still the matter of the forgiven servant in Mt 18 being tormented after. But true God never changes like an unjust judge does. So you see, all the info provided is required to solve the mystery.

- No 2nd Coming? Rather the 2nd coming already came in: the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth "came" by Jesus Christ.

1st coming: law was given.
2nd coming: grace came, and truth came with it

For further clarity he taketh away the first that he might establish the second; For mixing contrary things makes an oxy-moron, and only a moron made one proselyte: twofold: more the child of hell: would add law to grace is sufficient again.

- No hell/Damnation (ALL means ALL)? There's two alls in God concluded them all in unbelief that he might have mercy upon all; And if the first all is concluded to be sinners all, well then, that's extinction of all if the penalty for sin is death, and to all by the curse of the law. So it's an either or scenario, either them all (dead) or us all (alive), not a mixture. God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to salvation.

So pick one only: salvation or extinction: us or them: grace or law: to be or not to be. For they do not mix, except as grace(is) + law(added), which is also life(is) + death(added), which is a dead end. Oops, not suffered to continue by reason of death.

Obviously continuation is required to endure unto the end (of law) to be saved (only) by grace (only):

The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ with you all. Amen.

Derek,

Grace(not law) unto you, and peace(not confusion), from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

God(Grace) is not [the author] of confusion, but [is the author] of peace. God saw only good x6, very good 7th time: Genesis 1; Only grace, true grace 7th time, not both good and evil (not law), and Noahic grace + law is not the same thing as JC grace + truth, if you can receive it: grace and truth: salvation and awareness of what we're all delivered from: law.

It helps to see (by being born again of incorruptible seed: grace) that the Bible is all "allegory" in both "covenants", as noted in Galatians 4: two sons of Abraham by two mothers are two covenants, "which things are an allegory" ("written aforetime for our learning": Romans 15:4, and as "mystery" to solve: noted 27 times). So, it's more like a virtual matrix to navigate (thru J-->C--->to God) than being literal or historical, more like an allegoric mystery to solve in time, since there's neither mystery nor time for it in eternity, where understanding prevails...

And it's not all scriptures (plural and oft contrary) given by inspiration of God in 2Timothy 3:16, but rather all "scripture". So we could allegory say God only inspires the script-u-are that is profitable, in order to have the man of God be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works (no bad works at all).

So Galatians 4 both asks and answers: "what saith the script-u-are" (of plural and contrary scriptures that are allegory)? It saith: "cast out the bondwoman and her son". The bondwoman is "this Agar", who is allegorically "Mt Sinai": the law. Her son would be the result of law. So the script-u-are saith cast out the law and the result of the law: sin & death.

Now as to allegoric mirror questions, there are many which many fall for: shall I? Will I? Shall be? Shall all? Said Jesus? Am I? Etc. Eg: To him that overcometh "will I"(?) grant to sit with me in my throne (Revelation 3:21). Let's remember Hebrew is read bwd, from right to left; So law minded ppl would see "will I" as I will. It's quite a fascinating study, a mystery with lots of twists, but always boils down to making the tree grace or law, and the fruit thereof good or corrupt. For a good tree cannot produce corrupt fruit, and a corrupt tree cannot produce good fruit; So it's allegorically saying grace is not law, and law is not grace. They are not compatible, but mirrorly reverse, like "am I" (law) is mirrorly reverse of "I am" (grace). Eg: "when I am (grace) weak, then am I (law) strong". First bind the strong man (law: strength of sin's death sting) to spoil his house, receive all his goods. But what if his goods are both good and evil. What if Noahic grace is not JC grace? Lots of twists, to sort out; With the purpose being you can't get fooled (lawed), nor fooled (lawed) again, once you get it: understanding: grace glory, the glory of God that much more excels in glory, so much more that law glory fades to nothing, by compare-i-son, of sons.

Grace(Friend) and Law(Enmity) are contrary things that cannot co-exist in peace, only mix to make an oxy-moron; And since grace always is and law was added (eg: Gen 2:16+17), the only plausible oxy-moron mixture is grace + law, which is as blessed + cursed ends badly: accursed: Gal 1:8,9, or as saved + destroyed ends badly: Jude 1:5.

Furthermore adding law to grace is sufficient makes grace "no more grace", but grace + law, like adding death to life makes life no more life, but life + death; which is a dead end, which God will not have: not then, not now, not ever. So the will of God is allegorically stated as "I will have mercy(grace), and not sacrifice(law)", and do the will of God precedes receive the promise: eternal life of eternal salvation, by grace void of law: which is mercy void of sacrifice: which is peace void of confusion; of true peace that comes with understanding, not false peace that passeth all understanding.

To make the mystery of God even more interesting (a challenge), reconciliation is neither to Jesus nor to Christ, but to God (be ye reconciled to God: 2Cor 5), yet it's "through Jesus-->Christ"-->"to God"; Since only the "greatest" of "three things" never fails. Of great greater greatest; Great can also be "great terror" of "great tribulation" of "Babylon the great" for being twice fallen as humpty dumpty had a "great" fall; And greater can also be "greater damnation", unless you're "greater" than Solomon(king) and Jonah(prophet) "here", of here and there (for if any say lo here or lo there: law here or law there: believe it not). But when it comes to what's greatest, of 3 things, like charity of faith-->hope-->charity, then it's noted charity "never faileth" to forgive because charity "thinketh no evil" to even forgive (in the same manner God saw only good in Gen 1, not both good and evil). So charity is put on above forgiving one another, as the third of three things and the seventh of seven, bcz the third day is also the seventh day when counting days in Jn 1 & 2; And there's no mention of even-ing + mourn-ing on the seventh day, unless you want it to be "the day of the LORD(LAW) is darkness and not light" (Amos 5)... lights out, or a Sabbath where a vengeful "Son of man" (should repent) is "Lord also", also speaks of destructive "wrath to come", eg: sort noted in 1Thess 5:3, sudden destruction: not escape, but for clarity only for "them" of them/us in 1Thess 5:3/9. So for them it would be also merciless, instead of also merciful.

So then, not a third coming, but an alternate ending; but only if you want two endings instead of the one end (of law) already written to endure unto. Selah.

As for the sacrifice thing(s), God(Grace) will have neither of good and better sacrifices(laws), which are good and better for some only, not all. God will have what's best for all, of good, better, best. What's best for all is no sacrifice at all (no law at all), since "we thus judge if one died for all, then were all dead". All dead is extinction, not salvation; And God did not send his Son to condemn (law) the world, no, not this, but that: through him the world might be saved (graced and truthed). Furthermore God did not send his Son till the fulness of time for law had expired: Gal 4; which allegory speaks of law having an expiry date, which expired long ago, as part one of a two part shew about a third part: the new and living way instead of the new and dead way: the more excellent way that is neither broad nor narrow minded, in the same manner as us-ward is neither of them vs them, all is neither many nor few, etc.

The gospel preached by Paul is notably "the gospel of God": grace, and "the gospel of Christ": peace; Not the gospel of Johnny Law Law, who thinks himself more beloved, but only according to John, one of the twins (sons of thunder) who caused the ten to be moved to "indignation", which is notably a consequence of law judging in Romans 2, and notably "inexcusable" behaviour, and a self-condemning thing to do: wanting to be right to make others wrong, which makes the whole world wrong if a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump, like Judas, Peter, James, John leavened the dirty dozen, and like the woman leavened both the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God, with her law law, which she put in three measures of meal. So Jesus calls his mother "Woman", and twice in verily verily John, and neither time is a compliment. Eg: Woman, behold thy Son, is allegory for woman, look what your law law did.

What you perhaps have not yet noticed about Paul, is he's not only a revealer of an abundance of revelations, but also a faithful "steward" of the "mysteries"; Plural mysteries: of God, and of the Father, and of Christ to solve. So Paul's a very clever revealer and concealer, who opens his epistles with grace and peace from God and Son, looks at both sides now, compares spiritual things (laws) with spiritual (grace), then closes with grace to you all as the only logical conclusion of all this/that. For the "evidence" is what makes it "evident": " that no man (adult) is justified by the law in the sight of God", not even Jesus, who's heard to say (repeat) "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me"? Allegoric Moral: having two Gods: Grace + Law, ends badly: "forsaken", because Law flat out said: I will forsake you: Jeremiah. In comparison and contrast, Grace says: I will never leave nor forsake you. But adding forsake to not forsake ends badly. Selah.

As for Revelation(s), the first and last verse reveal Paul as writer, sign-ifying it with his "token" (when comparing Rev 22:21 with the token in every Pauline epistle, and such token of grace notably written by his own hand, as told us thrice in other Pauline episltes, aptly canonized as pre-requisite reading). As for judgments therein, well, such law prophecies "shall fail": 1Cor 13:8, when the people believe God, as did the prophecies for Nineveh fail in Jonah's great fish story, when the people believed God (is perfect and also merciful, not also merciless). Not to mention Revelation prophecy is not sealed, so thereby it's designed to fail; It's only a Mt 12:45 "worse" case scenario to a void, not hope it happens, unless you like reading about brethren getting tormented and killed to be law blessed, as Kenny Copland says he gets blessed by reading such. And not to mention the word worst does not occur in the NT, and even a worse case scenario ends grace us for "you all", which begins with "you", and applies to all the kingdom of God "within you".

Why only grace us? Because where law imputed sin abounds, grace "much more" abounds, in the human "race" of law vs grace, till there is not even mention of law(sin and death) in the end (of law) to endure unto. And when the God shew ends properly, as written, then it(law: sin and death) never happened, nor ever will happen, due to you all get it: understanding, and thereby understand adding law to grace is sufficient is as adding death to life.

So a last will and testament voids the first, making it old and faulty: he taketh away the first (law) that he might establish the second (grace and truth).

Law: press DELETE to take away the lie.
Grace: press SAVE to e-stablish the truth.

The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ with you all. Amen.

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

I think your reaching when you say that Jesus' response to the thief who repented was a question...my reason would be that if you apply the "shalt" logic you used for this to every "shalt" in the scriptures it would not hold...in regard to the other stuff, you have some valid points and interesting POV's...thanks for simplifying for me. Let me see if I understand...

1 True God...I might not envision this in the same way you do, but I agree with the points you made.

2nd Coming was Jesus Christ as Sacrifice / Grace, so...what is commonly referred to as the 2nd coming is actually the 3rd coming.

Hell/No Hell...that leaves open some questions as to why Paul preached the gospel, why Jesus commanded that the gospel be preached "to every creature", etc. Paul laments that he would exchange his salvation (grace) for that of the nation of Israel if it were possible, denoting that they are not beneficiaries of whatever it is that he has in Christ. And of course, what about the foretold judgement(s) in Revelation?

My main reservation about this line of reasoning is that it neglects the an integral element of the relationship between God and man...God's granting of and refusal to violate the "freedom to choose" / "free will" that He created man with. The risen (perfected) Christ provides grace where the previously the law (choosing to follow) dealt with sin (death)...but God never forced anyone to follow the law (expiation for unrighteousness)nor prevented them from refusing the grace (righteousness) he imputed through Christ.

Also, what about the issue of dispensation? Who is Christ addressing with the "endureth to end" reference? What about those who have died (in Christ)?
Also, the metaphors employed by Paul re: Abraham (faith imputed for righteousness), the passover (not evryone was spared, only those who APPLIED the blood to the door posts), the serpent in the wilderness (only those who looked upon it were healed), Christ's continuous metaphor for salvation with his healings, none of which were forced upon those he healed (with the exception of those possessed), rather, they most often asked, and most often Christ responded to their FAITH...if the ALL is ALL as I understand you to be saying it is, wouldn't he have simply healed everyone?
Why is such a premium put on faith by Jesus Christ himself in teh NT and God the Father in the OT?



Benedici di Dio
Derek

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

Derek,

Grace unto you, and peace,
from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

If you look closely at Luke 23:43 in the KJV it says, and notably unto the malefactor who mentioned fear of God and condemnation by God: "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise"? "shalt thou" is a question, not a statement would read thou shalt. Not to mention it's unperfected Jesus speaking, which Jesus himself noted in Luke 13:32: the third day I shall be perfected. And if one day [is] as a thousand years with the Lord in 2Peter 3:8, then we should be expecting the perfection of Jesus any time now, since it's now the third day, allegorically speaking.

As to your other questions:
- 2 Gods? Mention of "the only true God" denotes one or more false Gods to find and compare; In the same manner mention of "the only wise God" denotes one or more foolish Gods to find and compare. Mention of "the blessed and only Potentate" kinda narrows it down to one only. But which one? There's a choice to make in order to have one God, and reason (1000 pages of clarity) given along with choice. Eg: Both Gods (Law and Grace) will give you freedom, such as freedom of speech; But then what about thine own mouth condemneth thee if thy heart is not esablished with grace? So perhaps both freedom and understanding is required to avoid condemning yourself with your own mouth. Not to mention Law also imputes unpardonable sin both here and there, so that narrows the options, if true God hath forgiven you (past tense), and before the Mt 6:14,15 condition of you first. Yet even if a forgiven servant, there's still the matter of the forgiven servant in Mt 18 being tormented after. But true God never changes like an unjust judge does. So you see, all the info provided is required to solve the mystery.

- No 2nd Coming? Rather the 2nd coming already came in: the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth "came" by Jesus Christ.

1st coming: law was given.
2nd coming: grace came, and truth came with it

For further clarity he taketh away the first that he might establish the second; For mixing contrary things makes an oxy-moron, and only a moron made one proselyte: twofold: more the child of hell: would add law to grace is sufficient again.

- No hell/Damnation (ALL means ALL)? There's two alls in God concluded them all in unbelief that he might have mercy upon all; And if the first all is concluded to be sinners all, well then, that's extinction of all if the penalty for sin is death, and to all by the curse of the law. So it's an either or scenario, either them all (dead) or us all (alive), not a mixture. God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to salvation.

So pick one only: salvation or extinction: us or them: grace or law: to be or not to be. For they do not mix, except as grace(is) + law(added), which is also life(is) + death(added), which is a dead end. Oops, not suffered to continue by reason of death.

Obviously continuation is required to endure unto the end (of law) to be saved (only) by grace (only):

The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ with you all. Amen.

Thanks for the detailed response, heavy stuff...strangely, I don't really find a problem with where you end up with this line of reasoning but I (in all honesty) believe that one can arrive at the same truth (for BY GRACE are ye saved THROUGH FAITH, NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast) wihout getting rid of St. John's contributions to the Scriptures and denying the positive aspects of Peter and James' ministries; also, you kind of skipped the metaphors found in the LAW that serve as foreshadowing of God's plan for a permanent shedding of blood for the remission of sin having always a choice involved...interesting take on the "Woman behold thy son" statement, very sobering and terrible to consider, both of which are often characteristics of truth...once again I appreciate your clarification.

Benedici di Dio
Derek

Derek,

Grace unto you, and peace,
from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Know makes you free of beliefs;
and know contains the word now.

By grace "are ye" saved is a question.
There's many ways to be saved:
- don't do this, but do that
- don't believe this, but believe that
- call on a name
- etc, etc, etc
But the important thing is being saved only;
Exodus folk got saved + destroyed after: Jude 1:5.

Same concept applies to forgiven:
servant in Mt 18 got forgiven + tormented after.

All who diligently tried to attain righteousness (grace) of the law failed to attain it: Romans 9:31; Galatians 3:11; Hebrews 11:13,39; And it's the evidence that makes it evident that no man (adult) is justified by the law in the sight of God.

Pst: Bloodshed does not purge all sin consciousness, only "almost all" sin, as noted in Hebrews 9; Leaving you a tad short of entering, if not totally purged.

As for being blessed: law blessed or grace blessed,
consider two blessed(s) compared in Psalms 32:1,2
which Paul notably repeats in Romans 4:7,8
noting the second is the blessedness of man.
For the first is notably a cover up blessed,
which when uncovered(revelationed) is a mess.

The end "run" noted in Hebrews 12 is an end run of a human "race" along "with patience", does the end run at a grace pace: "much more" abounds than law imputed sin and sin's death sting abound. So to do the end run along with patience and make it to the end alive unto God, you need to lose the weight that is beseting you from reaching "escape" velocity required to escape wrath to come; For if you don't lose this weight of sacrifice (of and to law), the "not escape" clause in 1Thessalonians 5:3's sudden destruction may catch you, sting you from behind, and make your ass grass in a New York minute. Eg: Galatians 5:4. Selah.

The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ with you all. Amen.

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

Thanks for the detailed response, heavy stuff...strangely, I don't really find a problem with where you end up with this line of reasoning but I (in all honesty) believe that one can arrive at the same truth (for BY GRACE are ye saved THROUGH FAITH, NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast) wihout getting rid of St. John's contributions to the Scriptures and denying the positive aspects of Peter and James' ministries; also, you kind of skipped the metaphors found in the LAW that serve as foreshadowing of God's plan for a permanent shedding of blood for the remission of sin having always a choice involved...interesting take on the "Woman behold thy son" statement, very sobering and terrible to consider, both of which are often characteristics of truth...once again I appreciate your clarification.

Benedici di Dio
Derek