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horse color and the domestication event

Greetings!
Finally signed up for viewing a website I've been trolling like forever. And it had some really interesting stuff to say.
From Sciencemag.org

Mutations responsible for coat color dilutions or spottings seem to appear later. Cream (buckskin) and (black) silver dilutions (2800 to 2600 yr B.P.) were first observed in Siberia. Sabino is the first spotting phenotype, appearing during the fifth millennium B.P. in Siberia, and present in Armenia and Moldavia during the middle Bronze Age. The Tobiano spotting was first found in a single Eastern European sample (3500 to 3000 yr B.P.) and later also in Asia. Unlike in samples from Siberia and Eastern Europe, we observed no color change in Spanish samples until medieval times.

Although we cannot statistically reject neutrality for four out of six loci tested, the selection coefficient for ASIP and MC1R was found to be significantly different from zero (6, 8); (table S8, and fig. S3). Our results are therefore best explained by selective breeding, which supports domestication as the cause for the observed changes in coloration. Given the rapid change, we conclude that horse domestication started in the Eurasian steppe region around at least 5000 yr B.P.

(OK this is just me, but I think that the tobiano is older than this because it is or was found in all ancient horse breeds while sabino was not found in the Celtic influenced breeds. the presence of sabino in the Shetland and not the ICelandic shows the Shetland has been influenced by sabino present breeds while the Icelandic has been kept influence free for over a thousand years) However it does agree with historical evidence that the Celts were moving away from their ancestral homeland at this time. Regrettably the Lp study was not in this research)

Re: horse color and the domestication event

Looking at some data on Canadian horses and ponies and found out only 3% of the world's horses belong to the E haplogroup but 40% of the Kerry Bog pony belongs to this mare line. Kerry Bog history states they came from Spain so it is conceivable somewhere out there...probably in the Choctaw or Cherokee line the group exists. This line is also old, dating back as far as the Bronze Age (3200 BC to 1200 BC; Kakoi et al. 2007;
this coincides with the date for the tobiano and the septem-centum split. This Canadian study found E group in Canadian, Mountain, Moorland and Nordic horses, not surprizing to me as if indeed this is a Celtic line it would be found in Celtic influenced breeds.

In another article that I read it placed the ponies of northern Spain in the Celtic family but most closely related to the Exmoor. I remember reading that Exmoors were imported to Spain in the early twentieth century.

Lastly Clydesdales and Standardbred horses were as prominent in the C1 family as other pony breeds. 296 Thoroughbreds were tested and 6% belonged to C1 family while 14% belonged to C2. This is comparable with its presence in mustangs. 11% of those TBs belonged to A family as does the Sorraia, Mustang, Andalusian and Lusitano.

Just showing that a good horse can come from any line...even one designated pony,

Re: horse color and the domestication event

I just wrote to a friend of mine about the tobiano and the centum/septem split and it occurred to me, the oldest found presence of the tobiano gene to date occurs in the land of the oldest Lp horses. The dating is 3000 BC give or take. Because of some historical factors I say the tobiano gene is older but without proof not much I can do.

However that being said, this does back up my thoughts on when the IndoAryans seperated from the IndoEuropeans. The Celts had the tobiano horse and the creams and duns and grays, but the sabino gene was not present in their herds....one of ther reasons why I say tobiano is older. Sabino was present in the IndoIranian herds, I am guessing the earliest manifestation of that color was the half white faces that are found in art and is present in modern CS horses. The Vedic Indian horses appear to have split earlier from the Persians because the Lp gene is not found in their horses. And I say appear because the Assyrians stole Lp horses from someone and I have always assumed it was the Medes who 'gave' them Lp horses. And the Medes did have Lp horses and the Assyrians every year stole horses from them, but the first horse people the Assyrians had contact with were the Mittani a Vedic Indian people and breeders of the best chariot horses alive. Hmmm, I may have just validated my thought. Akhenaton and Nefertiti drove Vedic Indian horses (their own writing verify this) and no Lp horses.

So that's it. The Medes hung around Eastern Europe, Romania and the Ukraine, long enough to acquire Lp horses in their herds. The Scythians who also inhabited that region had Lp horses as well....whether from surviving wild horses (questionable) or having stolen them (more likely)

Sabino arrived in Southern Spain via the Phoencian horse traders...Spanish silver, but they appear to be the white faced variety. These were the ancestors of the famous Spanish racehorses of Roman, Greek all the way up to Henry VIII's time. The Lp arrived in Spain with the Nisean horses of Emp. Justinian which included both NonSB1 and SB1